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arthur

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Starmer declares that a Swiss style deal is a no go as FOM is a red line for him. Nowt like the zeal of a convert I suppose. 😎
Starmer's tactic is clearly to shut down as much debate outside Labour's main campaigning points (economy, NHS, Green growth, constitutional reform) as possible. Not pretty, but probably effective. Some Labour policies (e.g, defence) have been a distraction in past elections and the broad brush of the 2019 manifesto gave the Tories plenty of topics to aim at and so deflect attention from their own weaknesses. See also Theresa May/Nick Timothy and the Social Care fiasco in 2017. Starmer threatens to be the Mourinho of UK politics....
 

tavyred

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Starmer's tactic is clearly to shut down as much debate outside Labour's main campaigning points (economy, NHS, Green growth, constitutional reform) as possible. Not pretty, but probably effective. Some Labour policies (e.g, defence) have been a distraction in past elections and the broad brush of the 2019 manifesto gave the Tories plenty of topics to aim at and so deflect attention from their own weaknesses. See also Theresa May/Nick Timothy and the Social Care fiasco in 2017. Starmer threatens to be the Mourinho of UK politics....
It would be the irony of ironies if we saw in the next two years more debate on closer EU alignment in Tory circles than Labour ones.
You personally must be disappointed with Starmer’s stance on Brexit?
 

arthur

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It would be the irony of ironies if we saw in the next two years more debate on closer EU alignment in Tory circles than Labour ones.
You personally must be disappointed with Starmer’s stance on Brexit?
Indeed. I was disappointed that he voted for Johnson's Trade and Cooperation agreement at the end of 2020/beginning of 2021 when he could quite easily have abstained. It dipped the Labour Party's hand in the blood of this deeply flawed deal (complete with NI Protocol problems) which means that Labour cannot criticise it.

I am firmly of the view that Brexit was an entirely Tory project and they should be held responsible for whatever successes and failures it has generated. Labour should be free to take whatever position it chooses and take the political consequences (good and bad) of that.

But that ship has sailed and we are where we are. I can see the logic of Starmer's position(see above) but am not going to get too fussed about it. Starmer has U turned on FoM once, there's no reason why he won't do if again :)
 

tavyred

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Thanks Art. 👍
It is good however to have my fears on Starmer’s Brexit stance confirmed by a Labour supporter like yourself.
He is not to be trusted.
 

arthur

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Thanks Art. 👍
It is good however to have my fears on Starmer’s Brexit stance confirmed by a Labour supporter like yourself.
He is not to be trusted.
My problem is that I fear he can probably be trusted with regard to this.The locating of my tongue in my cheek came more out of hope than expectation :cautious:
 

arthur

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How d’you work that out?
The referendum on EU membership was designed and delivered by David Cameron, a Tory Prime Minister with the express intention of resolving an internal debate within the Tory Party. He originally proposed it confident in the knowledge that this was a promise his coalition Lib Dem partners would not permit him to keep. However by targeting Lib Dem seats in the 2015 General election the Tory Party suddenly found itself with an unexpected Commons majority, and this promise now needed to be honoured, or the Tory Party would have been ungovernable.

At this point the Tory Prime Minister could have designed a proper referendum which contained well thought out proposals as to what form Brexit might take. Rather than follow the example of the SNP who had produced a comprehensive document detailing what an independent Scotland would look like, running to 10 chapters which the electorate could be informed about and discuss, or convene citizens assembles to come up with viable proposals as happens in other countries, Cameron lazily left the question vague, convinced that it didn't matter because Remain would win. ("This is not the Brexit that The People voted for" thus became one of the most ridiculous statements of modern times, given that all sorts of different people voted for all sorts of different Brexits. Norman Lamont, for instance, voted to leave the political union but stay in the economic one (SM and CU); Nigel Farage voted to leave without any deal at all, and Mr/Mrs disgruntled who never normally votes voted to leave without any thought of the nature of our relationship with the EU, but just to show how fed up they were).

So having obtained parliamentary approval for his tawdry little referendum, the Conservative Government led the Remain campaign meaning that the Conservative politicians in the Leave campaign went unchallenged by the leaders of the Remain campaign. (Contrast this with the 1975 referendum which was entirely non party political with cabinet ministers tearing lumps out of each other on live TV). Meanwhile the Labour Party, led by someone who did not enjoy the confidence of 80% of its MPs, largely absented itself from the debate, its leader even going on holiday during the campaign. And everyone still hated the Lib Dems so their voice went unheard.

So, in the battle between the two halves of the Conservative Party, the Leave half narrowly won. At which point the Conservative party appointed a new Prime Minister to try to work out what Brexit actually meant. Yvette Cooper offered a degree of Labour support to help with this, but this offer was spurned as accepting it would have risked destroying the Conservative Party.

So May pressed on and called a election in order to crush the saboteurs on the Tory right. That didn't work, and in the early hours of Friday June 9th 2017 David Davis rang Keir Starmer. "I think we might need your help getting Brexit through Parliament" "Fine," replied Starmer, "we'll speak later". Later that morning Davis rang back, telling Starmer that the Tories had decided to work with the DUP instead..

Various attempts were made to get a Brexit deal through Parliament, but none were successful until the Conservative party won an 80 seat majority at the end of 2019.

At no point did any other party support Brexit until Starmer, for no good reason, whipped his MPs to vote for the TCA agreement. Brexit was always a Tory policy, for internal Tory party reasons, carried out by and on behalf of the Tory Party. The idea that it was anything other than this is simply not credible.
 
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