Politics Today

Grecian2K

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Now, now Art. Surely it was merely a public service by the CON party to "give us back control".

The irony is that, right back at the start in the 70s it was Heath's Tories who were fawningly desperate for those perfidious continentals and to let us in. IIRC back then, it was Labour who were the clear Eurosceptics in the debate.
 

Antony Moxey

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The referendum on EU membership was designed and delivered by David Cameron, a Tory Prime Minister with the express intention of resolving an internal debate within the Tory Party. He originally proposed it confident in the knowledge that this was a promise his coalition Lib Dem partners would not permit him to keep. However by targeting Lib Dem seats in the 2015 General election the Tory Party suddenly found itself with an unexpected Commons majority, and this promise now needed to be honoured, or the Tory Party would have been ungovernable.

At this point the Tory Prime Minister could have designed a proper referendum which contained well thought out proposals as to what form Brexit might take. Rather than follow the example of the SNP who had produced a comprehensive document detailing what an independent Scotland would look like, running to 10 chapters which the electorate could be informed about and discuss, or convene citizens assembles to come up with viable proposals as happens in other countries, Cameron lazily left the question vague, convinced that it didn't matter because Remain would win. ("This is not the Brexit that The People voted for" thus became one of the most ridiculous statements of modern times, given that all sorts of different people voted for all sorts of different Brexits. Norman Lamont, for instance, voted to leave the political union but stay in the economic one (SM and CU); Nigel Farage voted to leave without any deal at all, and Mr/Mrs disgruntled who never normally votes voted to leave without any thought of the nature of our relationship with the EU, but just to show how fed up they were).

So having obtained parliamentary approval for his tawdry little referendum, the Conservative Government led the Remain campaign meaning that the Conservative politicians in the Leave campaign went unchallenged by the leaders of the Remain campaign. (Contrast this with the 1975 referendum which was entirely non party political with cabinet ministers tearing lumps out of each other on live TV). Meanwhile the Labour Party, led by someone who did not enjoy the confidence of 80% of its MPs, largely absented itself from the debate, its leader even going on holiday during the campaign. And everyone still hated the Lib Dems so their voice went unheard.

So, in the battle between the two halves of the Conservative Party, the Leave half narrowly won. At which point the Conservative party appointed a new Prime Minister to try to work out what Brexit actually meant. Yvette Cooper offered a degree of Labour support to help with this, but this offer was spurned as accepting it would have risked destroying the Conservative Party.

So May pressed on and called a election in order to crush the saboteurs on the Tory right. That didn't work, and in the early hours of Friday June 9th 2017 David Davis rang Keir Starmer. "I think we might need your help getting Brexit through Parliament" "Fine," replied Starmer, "we'll speak later". Later that morning Davis rang back, telling Starmer that the Tories had decided to work with the DUP instead..

Various attempts were made to get a Brexit deal through Parliament, but none were successful until the Conservative party won an 80 seat majority at the end of 2019.

At no point did any other party support Brexit until Starmer, for no good reason, whipped his MPs to vote for the TCA agreement. Brexit was always a Tory policy, for internal Tory party reasons, carried out by and on behalf of the Tory Party. The idea that it was anything other than this is simply not credible.
F*** me, you should take up writing fiction professionally, you’d make a fortune.
 

arthur

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Interesting titbit form The Rest is Politics (the Stewart and Campbell podcast). Said the French maintain that one of the reasons economic migrants don't stay in France but try to reach UK is because the French have ID cards, so disappearing into the shadow economy is that much harder. What think you Tavy?
 

Alistair20000

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Good afternoon art

Without wishing to cut across your exchanges with Mr Moxey, are you suggesting that only Tory voters participated in the Referendum when over 33 million valid votes were cast ?

As regards reading 10 chapters of weighty data most of us the Great Unwashed make a decision based on impression and considering a matter in the round. I don’t imagine too many of the kilted ones ploughed through all that stuff in 2014 do you ?
 

Egg

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You said you would answer my question as to what aspects of this country have improved since 2010 once I had outlined what I thought had declined. This I did, straightaway, but I am still awaiting your response as to how things have improved...
Given Jinxy's reticence to answer this question, I thought I'd help him out. Here's a link to a column by The Spectator's deputy editor, Isabel Hardman, in today's Observer, addressing the very same question:
What is the Tory party’s legacy after so many years in power? Pretty thin gruel | Isabel Hardman | The Guardian
Her conclusion: little, if anything.
 

tavyred

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Interesting titbit form The Rest is Politics (the Stewart and Campbell podcast). Said the French maintain that one of the reasons economic migrants don't stay in France but try to reach UK is because the French have ID cards, so disappearing into the shadow economy is that much harder. What think you Tavy?
We have had such a discussion on this subject before art.
I don’t doubt it at all, it’s my perception that illegal access to employment and government services is made easier because we have a libertarian attitude to the adoption to ID cards of the type we see in countries like France.
I have a theory, based on no evidence at all, that our politicians are reluctant to adopt ID cards now because it would lay bare the scale of the how many people are living and working here under the radar as it were.
Just think if folks had to produce a national ID card before accessing NHS care for example.
 
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