Politics Today

[angelic upstart]

Then you weren't living solely off benefits, you were defrauding the system . As I said before, that is an entirely different matter and, regardless of my social class, I am fully aware that that goes on. But that wasn't the question I was asking.

I remain to be convinced that a fit, healthy person would chose to live on £85 per week (after housing costs)

In fairness, last time I was on the dole, I got £67 a week for rent, and £65 a week for living (this was 2010, immediately after finishing university) I had to pay roughly £10 a week towards my rent as it didn't cover it. As it happens, I had a job lined up so it was no issue, but not something you can do long term.

Thing is Art, in real life everyone on the dole is either working off the books, selling or some other nefarious activity (or activities) very few even bother trying to get by on £80 why would you? This is where it gets difficult to stop the payouts. The lifestyle of doing what you want, when you want is fun. A few years down the line the mental health issues kick in as you can't do that forever and they haven't got the discipline or capacity to move on.

The benefits system isn't perfect, no system is, but there's literally millions of people doing the above (drop shipping, selling dodgy fire sticks, even those scented candles sellers!) and side hustling so they have a few quid on top of the dole. That doesn't include the black market style workers and the sneaky ones on the tools. They're all at it. The right wing are right in that something needs to be done, they just don't have the answers. The left just ain't got a clue about the size of the problem.

P.s. I wasn't digging at you being middle class (I've no idea if you are!), half the people on here will sneer anyway!

Edited to add: I reckon at least half the instagram influencer type folk and only fans girls are on some kind of benefits.

 

[Mr Jinx]

I agree with this. But that doesn't make Hunt's comments and less tone deaf given that it's still way above average household income. And you only need to earn £53k to fall into Hunt's 'higher rate' tax band.

But it's like anything when you talk about the top end. Barely anyone up there complains because you'd need the world's smallest violin.

That's why Gordon Brown's parting gift as PM was very crafty. It'll still be there for years to come.

There beomes a ridiculous situation when you reach the £100 - £120k mark (I call it the dead zone) where lots of people are better off at £99.9k than they are are £120k. It's explained here:

How to avoid the 60% tax trap - Nutmeg

It’s often thought that the highest rate of income tax in the UK is 45% – but that’s not actually the case.

www.nutmeg.com

.

Earn over £100k? Beware the ‘60% tax trap’ | RBC Brewin Dolphin

If you earn over £100,000 you could fall into the 60% tax trap. Find out why the tax trap happens and how to mitigate it.

www.brewin.co.uk

It was similar when Truss announced her Government announced they were getting rid of the Gordon Brown barb. It's a tough sell, because the remaining 95% of the population don't really get it. And I totally understand that. But of course, as is my wont, I believe that people at the top help generate a bit of wealth at the bottom. Compared to art, who believes people at the top just squirrel everything away in the Caymans for it never to be seen again.

 

[Mid Devon Grecian]

In fairness, last time I was on the dole, I got £67 a week for rent, and £65 a week for living (this was 2010, immediately after finishing university) I had to pay roughly £10 a week towards my rent as it didn't cover it. As it happens, I had a job lined up so it was no issue, but not something you can do long term.

Thing is Art, in real life everyone on the dole is either working off the books, selling or some other nefarious activity (or activities) very few even bother trying to get by on £80 why would you? This is where it gets difficult to stop the payouts. The lifestyle of doing what you want, when you want is fun. A few years down the line the mental health issues kick in as you can't do that forever and they haven't got the discipline or capacity to move on.

The benefits system isn't perfect, no system is, but there's literally millions of people doing the above (drop shipping, selling dodgy fire sticks, even those scented candles sellers!) and side hustling so they have a few quid on top of the dole. That doesn't include the black market style workers and the sneaky ones on the tools. They're all at it. The right wing are right in that something needs to be done, they just don't have the answers. The left just ain't got a clue about the size of the problem.

P.s. I wasn't digging at you being middle class (I've no idea if you are!), half the people on here will sneer anyway!

Edited to add: I reckon at least half the instagram influencer type folk and only fans girls are on some kind of benefits.

As ever it’s down to our systems being cr*p. It shouldn’t be difficult for the benefits agency to twig if someone’s been claiming the dole for a couple of years or more that they must be doing something on the side to live. If they can do that ‘side hustle’ then they can work.

I think where the right wing obsessives lack in reality is that there really are a lot of people that can’t work because our social safety net has been massively eroded.

 

[lamrobhero]

My thing is that Goverment should treat citizens equally.

So instead of stopping the payments give everyone a payment combined with a flat rate tax on all income.
Get rid of the bureaucracy, the snoopers and the Right's idea of the deserving and the non-deserving poor.
If the base payment is a barrier to labour market participation then reduce it - but on the basis of objective evaluation.
Bring in other measures to facilitate labour participipation and flexibility.

The Anne Widdecombe sanctimony does my head in.

 

[Alistair20000]

What's your personal view?

It feels inconsistent to me, but perhaps there is a need to ascribe different standards to different situations. But to punish someone for their decisions as a 15 year old in the way that is being applied to Begum seems harsh to the point of being politically motivated.

My personal view is that the Court of Appeal decision was correct and I am content with it. Have you read it ?

Although Ms Begum was 15 when she left the U.K. she knew exactly what she was doing. She admitted this in her own evidence given as an adult. Her support and promotion of terrorism continued into adulthood. She did not show contrition. Her attempt to come back to the U.K. arose only following the military defeat of IS.

I have little doubt that at some point she will find a way back to the U.K.

 

[Alistair20000]

Oh deary deary me.
Two more rodents grabbing their seat on the Tory Titanic lifeboat.
Two ministers quit in double blow to Rishi Sunak (msn.com)
Can Wishi-Rishi make it until after the Easter recess I wonder?

Yes he can.

Here to help.

 

[Alistair20000]

I am still waiting for evidence that there are people happy to survive on £85 per week rather than get a job...

Very naughty to quote the minimum entitlement art.

Try putting some figures in the official government benefit calculator and you will come out with much higher entitlements.

 

[Alistair20000]

But it's like anything when you talk about the top end. Barely anyone up there complains because you'd need the world's smallest violin.

That's why Gordon Brown's parting gift as PM was very crafty. It'll still be there for years to come.

There beomes a ridiculous situation when you reach the £100 - £120k mark (I call it the dead zone) where lots of people are better off at £99.9k than they are are £120k. It's explained here:

How to avoid the 60% tax trap - Nutmeg

It’s often thought that the highest rate of income tax in the UK is 45% – but that’s not actually the case.

www.nutmeg.com

.

Earn over £100k? Beware the ‘60% tax trap’ | RBC Brewin Dolphin

If you earn over £100,000 you could fall into the 60% tax trap. Find out why the tax trap happens and how to mitigate it.

www.brewin.co.uk

It was similar when Truss announced her Government announced they were getting rid of the Gordon Brown barb. It's a tough sell, because the remaining 95% of the population don't really get it. And I totally understand that. But of course, as is my wont, I believe that people at the top help generate a bit of wealth at the bottom. Compared to art, who believes people at the top just squirrel everything away in the Caymans for it never to be seen again.

In fairness to art it it is G2K who is most obsessed with the idea of the rich squirrelling everything away in offshore tax havens.

The sort of “cliff edge” tax traps that you refer to are absurd and wholly indefensible. Cannot see Rachel sorting those out

 

[Alistair20000]

I accept that. But you are being unrealistic in thinking any influx of jobs brought by lowering corporation tax would be filled by them. It wouldn't. We'd need to rely on....immigration! As happened in Ireland.

I was not suggesting that reducing CT has a bearing on the idle feckers who don’t want to work but I am pleased you recognise that we have folk who fall into that category.

 

[Alistair20000]

How many people have you met who are mentally and physically fit and able to work but who choose to live on benefits instead? (Do not include people who supplement their benefits with black economy cash in hand work as this is a criminal offence and another matter entirely)

As I don’t start a conversation with an intrusive enquiry into a person’s health and financial affairs I cannot give an opinion.