UK and European Politics 2024 Thread

[Mr Jinx]

Boris Johnson wading into things today with his attack on Farage (wrt Ukraine) has to be the most hilarious moment of the election campaign so far.

Boris Johnson blasts Nigel Farage for 'repugnant' claims on Ukraine

The former prime minister lashed out at the Reform UK leader after he doubled down on his comments that the West was to blame for provoking Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

www.dailymail.co.uk

His memory must be shortening having effectively retired. We don't have far to go back though...

Boris Johnson blamed EU for earlier Russia attacks on Ukraine in 2016 speech

Future prime minister was condemned for arguing Brussels had ‘caused real trouble’ in Ukraine – in stark contrast to current stance

www.independent.co.uk

 

[lamrobhero]

Positivist empiricism says youre wrong. You *can* believe anything, but you shouldn't because some things are just plain wrong. The earth is demonstrably not flat, therefore you shouldn't believe that.

I am trying to distinguish Truth as a matter of personal judgement and Truth as something Absolute that comes from authority

 

[lamrobhero]

I find this part difficult, The earth isn't flat, no amount of ideology changes that fact. I think it is dangerous to allow ideology to rule facts. This is what allows the Farages, Le Pen's and Trumps free rain on talking crap.

I think you could be ideological about say, allowing gay marriage to be legalised or taking place within a particular religious setting, but you cannot be ideological about the earth being flat, you either believe the fact or you don't and one part is clearly wrong or ideological about supporting City maybe, but not scientific fact.

Ideology might not be the right word. If you wanted to convince me that the Earth was not flat I think that you would engage in a dialogue with me. I suggest that you would not say to me this is a pure absolute fact accept it.
The Fararge's etc. are not ideological at all. Challenging them on an ideological basis would be a path to victory. Instead the Left embraces the idea of common sense truth legitimising the Right's approach.
To answer whether gay marriage should be legalised or not you would have to reference an "ideology" (probably not the right word) in order to debate that issue. Unless you believed in some Absolute Truth in relation to the matter in which case you would not debate at all.

 

[lamrobhero]

There is clear harm potential to such insane notions. Let's not forget how many people have died in the name of heliocentricity. The slippery slope to insanity is real and dangerous.

Ignorance is not an excuse for criminal behaviour, nor is it an excuse for promoting nonsense.

What people die for is the notion that Truth is a matter for them and not a matter of Authority. Whether notions are insane can come out in debate but there should be no gatekeeper as to what those notions are.

 

[lamrobhero]

At what point though do beliefs become ideologies when those beliefs have been proved, like flat earthers, to be incorrect.

Just because you believe something to be true doesn't mean that it is true.

That for me is where ideologies, especially extreme ones, are dangerous and tend to be the reasons for one group of idealists fighting against another.

The war in palestine being a case in point or trump telling his supporters that he really won the last election and it being believed by gullible 'flat earth' rednecks.

I am a flat earther I believe it because as I go about my business the world seems flat. This is true for me. You come along and say Drake went around the World, people have gone up in space, etc. that is true for you Most of the World agrees with you and not with me. Ideology is not the right word but what I mean by it is why you think what you do and how you argue for its truth.
In my opinion Trump etc. are not idealists at all (in the way I use the term) as they never explain why they think what they think or argue in any meaningful way what they think. In that way I think that they are anti-ideological and therefore the way to challenge them is on an ideological basis.
The fall of the Iron Curtain and the collapse of Marxism as an idea has left a gap into which "the natural law" advocates have filled. Maybe time for a resurrection of Marxism ?

 

[BigBanker]

Boris Johnson wading into things today with his attack on Farage (wrt Ukraine) has to be the most hilarious moment of the election campaign so far.

Boris Johnson blasts Nigel Farage for 'repugnant' claims on Ukraine

The former prime minister lashed out at the Reform UK leader after he doubled down on his comments that the West was to blame for provoking Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

www.dailymail.co.uk

His memory must be shortening having effectively retired. We don't have far to go back though...

Boris Johnson blamed EU for earlier Russia attacks on Ukraine in 2016 speech

Future prime minister was condemned for arguing Brussels had ‘caused real trouble’ in Ukraine – in stark contrast to current stance

www.independent.co.uk

When populists pick on populists.

I wonder which one is taking the side of 'the people' now, speaking for the silent majority which they both love to be loved by - it can't be both?

Glorious stuff.

 

[lamrobhero]

That for me is where ideologies, especially extreme ones, are dangerous and tend to be the reasons for one group of idealists fighting against another.

The war in palestine being a case in point or trump telling his supporters that he really won the last election and it being believed by gullible 'flat earth' rednecks.

In terms of conflict the question is what the ideals are. If you have no ideals you have no values.

 

[Trapdoor]

What people die for is the notion that Truth is a matter for them and not a matter of Authority. Whether notions are insane can come out in debate but there should be no gatekeeper as to what those notions are.

Nah, this is nonsense mate.
If something is "true" it fits (within measurement error bounds,) the observable data. The literal definition is: that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality. It's not some subjective wishy-washy nonsense. End of story.

 

[BigBanker]

Immigration, an honest take (whether you agree with it or not) and not far from where I stand on the subject:

Final 4 minutes are particularly interesting, IMO.

 

[Grecian2K]

It is BELIEF when I believe it.
It is mere IDEOLOGY when you do (and I don't)
Simple