UK and European Politics 2024 Thread

[MJP_Exeter]

You think there is a direct comparison to be made between the rise of Hitler and the political landscape in 1920’s-30’s Germany and Western Europe’s (inc. the UK) current lurch to right wing populism?

I mean, they are pretty good at the othering of people and the Rhetoric and meaning behind it are not massively dissimilar are they really. The messaging, your life is crap, it is because of those people over there. Simple messages for simple people, whom just want to be able to afford a reasonable life etc. No one person in this country is in an economically bad position because of someone on Benefits (Welfare) or because of migration (Asylum, refugee or Economic). But it is such a simple message that idiots love and resonates with people whom cannot afford food and to live reasonably, because it is simple and clear. Unfortunately history tells us, this isn't an answer or solution to the problems this country faces. The US in the 30's and us in the late 40's, 50's and 60's showed the way to get our of economic messes, but this time round we pretended that economies work like house hold budgets or certainly pushed that rhetoric

I mean Braverman was told this at a hustings, was it last year or the year before that, where someone literally told her, she reminded her of it all around the rhetoric.

The real reasons for this position, is a lack of infrastructure spending, which means we have hardly grown the economy or made our country fit for purpose, austerity massively accelerated these issues, outside factors such as covid, Ukraine War and the Global financial crash and then self defeating stuff such as Brexit. Then there is the huge issue in property in this country, next to no social housing, a rental sector literally designed to shaft people in low quality, high cost housing. The next government has to address housing as a matter of priority, as if you can tackle and sort housing, then you sort out a number of other issues with this. The next government need to spend the next 5 years just fixing the country, it is gonna be tough with the economic back drop, but borrowing to invest in infrastructure is a pure and simple must. Tax day to day spending, so equalising capital gains with income tax, The Private education VAT Levy, removing the non dom status are some simple and quick ways we can draw money from the richest to help pay for some of this. Obviously I could go on forever, but in principle, if you invest in the infrastructure and housing, You will begin to sort the country out. There is a million and one things to do one top of this as well, but those 2 aspects must be the main starting point.

 

[arthur]

You think there is a direct comparison to be made between the rise of Hitler and the political landscape in 1920’s-30’s Germany and Western Europe’s (inc. the UK) current lurch to right wing populism?

You're the one who keeps referring to far right parties in Europe as "fascist"

 

[arthur]

From our very own art....surely not? Lolz.

I'm reliably informed, by you, that Enfield is full of Albanian Muslims. I haven't been to Clacton for many years, but I imagine the contrast between these two settlements is stark. Worthy subject matter for social anthropology GCSE project I'm sure...

 

[Mid Devon Grecian]

21 & 24 yrs old isn't a "kid".

I blame tiktok. Have you not seen "The life of a true Brexit geezer"?

Not on Tik Tok. Both my ‘not kids’ are though.

Andrew Tate plays his trade on Tik Tok I believe.

Need to be very wary who your youngsters are being influenced by.

 

[Oldsmobile-88]

I was called a fascist many years ago...I’d refused to let them smoke in my car

 

[Spoonz Red E]

You think there is a direct comparison to be made between the rise of Hitler and the political landscape in 1920’s-30’s Germany and Western Europe’s (inc. the UK) current lurch to right wing populism?

This is an 'all or nothing' comeback.
Of course there are differences.
It's the parallels that concern me.

Populists, as then, are busy reinforcing wedge issues and 'othering' sections of our society.
As then, one they achieve power they convince their followers that the rules have to be changed which consistently means controlling the media, getting rid of the separation of powers , denigrating checks and balances.
They are banning library books and limiting long fought for rights in Republican states in the USA right now.

So, yes, I think those comparisons should be noted.

 

[Phil Sayers]

This is an 'all or nothing' comeback.
Of course there are differences.
It's the parallels that concern me.

Populists, as then, are busy reinforcing wedge issues and 'othering' sections of our society.
As then, one they achieve power they convince their followers that the rules have to be changed which consistently means controlling the media, getting rid of the separation of powers , denigrating checks and balances.
They are banning library books and limiting long fought for rights in Republican states in the USA right now.

So, yes, I think those comparisons should be noted.

Even prior to gaining power they now have very few scruples at all about how they go about gaining power regardless of the long term damage they must know they are causing. Tactics such as 'alternate facts', 'punching down' at marginal sections of society, intimidating critics, threatening to prosecute political opponents not because of what they have done but simply because they are political opponents, undermining public confidence in electoral and judicial systems, inviting foreign authoritarian influence in politics and deliberately polarising society should concern us all. There are indeed 1930s parallels albeit it is important not to exaggerate those parallels.

Even twenty years ago much of what is happening now would have been unthinkable - the US is much further ahead than us in the backward democratic slide but there are plenty in politics here who are seeking to emulate that and are making progress in doing so.

 

[Phil Sayers]

Possibly the most alarming indication of something being seriously wrong is how Trump has been able to persuade / intimidate wide sections of the GOP Congress (aside from the MTG / Gaetz etc freakshow presumably generally intelligent and well informed people) into backing claims they know to be false and endorsing tactics they know to be incompatible with democratic debate or governance. Twenty years ago they would have baulked and felt their duty is to their country rather than a demagogue but in those twenty years such morality has evaporated.

 

[tavyred]

I mean, they are pretty good at the othering of people and the Rhetoric and meaning behind it are not massively dissimilar are they really. The messaging, your life is crap, it is because of those people over there. Simple messages for simple people, whom just want to be able to afford a reasonable life etc. No one person in this country is in an economically bad position because of someone on Benefits (Welfare) or because of migration (Asylum, refugee or Economic). But it is such a simple message that idiots love and resonates with people whom cannot afford food and to live reasonably, because it is simple and clear. Unfortunately history tells us, this isn't an answer or solution to the problems this country faces. The US in the 30's and us in the late 40's, 50's and 60's showed the way to get our of economic messes, but this time round we pretended that economies work like house hold budgets or certainly pushed that rhetoric

I mean Braverman was told this at a hustings, was it last year or the year before that, where someone literally told her, she reminded her of it all around the rhetoric.

The real reasons for this position, is a lack of infrastructure spending, which means we have hardly grown the economy or made our country fit for purpose, austerity massively accelerated these issues, outside factors such as covid, Ukraine War and the Global financial crash and then self defeating stuff such as Brexit. Then there is the huge issue in property in this country, next to no social housing, a rental sector literally designed to shaft people in low quality, high cost housing. The next government has to address housing as a matter of priority, as if you can tackle and sort housing, then you sort out a number of other issues with this. The next government need to spend the next 5 years just fixing the country, it is gonna be tough with the economic back drop, but borrowing to invest in infrastructure is a pure and simple must. Tax day to day spending, so equalising capital gains with income tax, The Private education VAT Levy, removing the non dom status are some simple and quick ways we can draw money from the richest to help pay for some of this. Obviously I could go on forever, but in principle, if you invest in the infrastructure and housing, You will begin to sort the country out. There is a million and one things to do one top of this as well, but those 2 aspects must be the main starting point.

Thanks.
You see I don’t think the situations are comparable, I guess when you compare the quality of peoples lives and their grievances then things are relative, but the economic situation in the Weimar Republic at times was horrendous for ordinary people and indeed fertile ground for characters like Hitler to take advantage of. Today’s Europe is wholly different IMO, no one is starving, or in want of basic healthcare and if you want a job then you can have one. I’m not voting Reform out of some sense of festering misplaced anger at Johnny Foreigner and because my life is crap but more because no one asked me (or anyone else!) if I wanted large scale inward migration and the ramifications of that, and I do think the £9BN per year we spend on the cross channel chancers in hotels would be better spent on summat else. What’s wrong with that?
How come lefties in their morally superior way always want to decide for other people what they think their political priorities should be?
You guys are relaxed about migration, a growing number of us aren’t.
Reform were on 4% in the polls when Sunak took over two years ago apparently.

 

[Phil Sayers]

Thanks.
You see I don’t think the situations are comparable, I guess when you compare the quality of peoples lives and their grievances then things are relative, but the economic situation in the Weimar Republic at times was horrendous for ordinary people and indeed fertile ground for characters like Hitler to take advantage of. Today’s Europe is wholly different IMO, no one is starving, or in want of basic healthcare and if you want a job then you can have one. I’m not voting Reform out of some sense of festering misplaced anger at Johnny Foreigner and because my life is crap but more because no one asked me (or anyone else!) if I wanted large scale inward migration and the ramifications of that, and I do think the £9BN per year we spend on the cross channel chancers in hotels would be better spent on summat else. What’s wrong with that?
How come lefties in their morally superior way always want to decide for other people what they think their political priorities should be?
You guys are relaxed about migration, a growing number of us aren’t.
Reform were on 4% in the polls when Sunak took over two years ago apparently.

Out of curiosity and aside from the specific reasons you have for intending to vote Reform, do you have any concerns about the seemingly steadily lowering bar that a wide variety of politicians have (here, in Europe, in the US, all across the globe) about what kind of tactics are permissible in the course of democratic debate or governance?